Show Notes – Episode #3:

A Talk between Aspiring Immortals

What happens when two quite mortal humans launch themselves out into the void to talk about Life and her Special Child, our good friend Death? To find out, tune into this bouncy conversation between myself and the beautiful and exuberant young writer, artist and youtube creator Zulema Fernandez.

Also, meet Jose, author of Hacedor de sentidoMaker of Meaning* – and his growing online community, Comunidad Hacedor de Sentido, who say this about themselves: “We welcome individuals from around the world who wish to help each other become better people, free human beings working together to transform ourselves and our environment. By contacting the Force within us and deepening our experience of the Transcedent, we aspire to contribute to a qualitative leap by our species.”**

It was through that online community that Jose met Zulema. She was such an enthusiastic and articulate participant that when I asked Jose if any of his community members might like to speak with me on this podcast, he immediately put me in touch with her.

That was how Zulema and I ended up meeting on Zoom at the end of May for a delightful half-hour conversation in which we barely scraped the tip of death rebellion iceberg. Here are a few teasers:

Why talk about death? Because it makes us more aware of life….

Maybe what dies is just our character, but not the consciousness that lives through that character…

…I suddenly felt like I was one with all the people surrounding me, like it was completely impossible to cut that connection. And I felt so much love and peace, I only could cry of happiness… The strange thing is, I wasn’t looking for that experience. It just occurred, like a flower blooms!

We are surrounded by this idea, that there is nothing more. That when we die, we die. But if there is nothing more, why are we constantly feeling that there is not enough, with ourselves, with our lives?

Observe how you ARE the other. The other human being, the other flower, the other mountain…

We ended our interchange with an eerily beautiful musical performance by Zulema, followed by some of my favorite words from “The Path” in Silo’s Message:

Do not imagine that you are alone in your village, in your city, on the earth, or among the infinite worlds.

Do not imagine that you are enchained to this time and this space.

Do not imagine that upon your death, lonliness will become eternal.

Our conversation left both of us touched and inspired, and we agreed that we would love to meet again, and invited any interested listeners to join us for an (unrecorded) zoom session.

*The novel Hacedor de Sentido/Maker of Meaning is currently being translated into English – contact Trudi for more information.

**Meetings of Comunidad Hacedor de Sentido are in Spanish only



Trudi Lee Richards:

Zulema Fernandez: Instagram – @VerdaderaNaturaleza; Youtube Channel – “Y tu, quien eres?”

Jose Luis de Leonardo Ferrer: email –; Whatsapp +56998350863

Comunidad Hacedor de Sentido: Infórmese sobre sus dos reuniones semanales de Zoom, miércoles y jueves, a las 6 p.m., hora del Pacífico  / Inquire about their two weekly Zoom meetings, Wednesdays and Thursdays, 6pm Pacific Time: Hacedor de sentido

Music from this episode:

“Muruki Cantar Egipcio” – Zulema Fernandez, Album Serenidad

Intro and outro music: “Follow Me,” IRCarus Ensemble, Portland, Oregon, 2021

Episode #3 Transcript:

A Talk between Aspiring Immortals

Day of the Winged Lioness Podcast – Episode #3, July 2021

Hello everybody! I’m Trudi Lee Richards from the Community of Silo’s Message in Portland, Oregon, and this is the third episode of the Day of the Winged Lioness, our podcast on rebelling against death.

Today we’ll be weaving in and out of time and space together, as you listen to me speaking across thousands of miles with my good new old friend Zulema Fernandez, a young writer, entrepreneur, interdisciplinary artist and fellow aspiring immortal from Madrid, Spain; and our voices will be reaching you wherever you happen to be in that free-floating moment that will then be your present, but is now still our future…

In a moment I’ll introduce Zulema. But first I need to tell you about Jose – Jose Luis de Leonardo Ferrer – another good new old friend. Both Zulema and I met Jose, who currently lives in Chile, because of a book he wrote.

The book, a novel called Hacedor de sentidoMaker of Meaning in English, is a gripping tale of suspense and intrigue that follows two young people half way around the globe as they strive to fulfill their vital mission of recovering and safeguarding certain essential knowledge that holds the key to the ongoing evolution of humanity.

Since its publication a few years ago, the book has inspired a growing number of young people across the Spanish-speaking world to take a radically new look at life: a positive, life-affirming look, a look of friendliness with oneself and the world. Many are now participating in an online community that meets regularly with the author to talk about the themes in his book, and to learn to work together for personal and social transformation. Their great aspiration is to contribute to humanity’s making a qualitative leap.

When word about all this reached me through the grapevine, I was intrigued – these are the kind of young people I’d like to see at the helm of the human future. So I began to think about inviting one of them to talk with me on this podcast – after all, what better way to rebel against death than to contribute to our species making a qualitative leap in consciousness?

Then, coincidentally, Jose contacted me about translating the book into English – a project that is now in process. So I asked him if anyone in his community might might like to speak with me, and he immediately put me in touch with Zulema.

Now between me and the beautiful young woman who is Zulema, there are veritable chasms of difference. Not only do we have nine-thousand miles between our physical bodies, and nine hours between our time zones, we have more than five sets of nines between our ages – not to mention the differences in language, culture, and life experience. And on top of that, on the day of our meeting, my mind happened to be happily wandering, so I ended up being ten minutes late, to find Zulema waiting in perplexity. But she was quite cheerful and understanding, and so we finally got the meeting going.

And I felt a bit as if we had stretched a rope across a yawning gulf, and had each hauled ourselves across, hand over hand, so we could finally meet in the middle and have our conversation hanging together over the void – which is of course the only place one can truly talk about the things that really matter. And it turned out that we resonated beautifully with each other, which is hardly surprising, since like all human beings everywhere, we are very much the same inside. As Silo once said, when someone asked him how they could be like him, “You go deep inside you, and I go deep inside me, and there we shall meet.”

One last thing before we get into my converation with Zulema: I need to apologize in advance for any unclarity in the sound. A certain amount of static that was zig-zagging its way around through the air somewhere between Portland and Madrid seems to have found its way into our conversation – and although I’ve done my best to prune most of it out, a crackle does intrude here and there. Hopefully, however, you’ll find the fruit of our conversation tasty enough to put up with the occasional prickle.

So, without further ado, here is our conversation:

ZF: Hello!

TLR: Hi Zulema! I’m so glad you could make it – It’s lovely to meet you at last! So let’s get right into our theme, rebelling against death. I understand you participate in Jose’s community, which is of course all about that. Can you say something about how you got involved, and what made you want to participate? And anything else you’d like to share about how you deal with the idea of death.

ZF: Yes, a friend talked about Jose’s meeting, so i went to that meeting, and from the first time I thought, “I love these people, they are incredible, I feel them so familiar… I feel it’s a group where you can be authentic, where you can be emotionally transparent, and you can share without feeling like you are a crazy person or something – because you know that in our society it’s really strange to talk about some topics, and I think death is one of them – it’s like taboo, it’s called in English?

TLR: Yeah, it is.

ZF: …and that is why i’m so happy to be here talking about one of the most important taboos, because I think talking about death makes us feel aware of life. And if we are trying to avoid that topic, we are avoiding one part of life which is very relevant, in my opinion.

TLR: Yeah, I totally agree. So, what else can we say about that – it’s like death is everywhere around us – I mean here in the United States we have almost every day a new shooting – not to mention the pandemic… There’s so many examples everywhere, and most people, I think, don’t know how to deal with those ideas and so they want to run away from them. What is it that you do, in your life, to keep from just wanting to run away from death?

ZF: What helps me face the death topic, is I like to think about who we are. Because I think the most scary idea about death is that we think that who we are disappears. So I think we are something more than our human character – and we identify so so much with that character, we think that all we are is that character. And when we die, we die.

In my opinion, there is something more that transcends that death – and that energy, it only transforms. I think we all live without knowing who we truly are, that we think we are going to die fully, and maybe what dies is just our character, but not the consciousness that lives through that character.

TLR: When you say “character,” you’re talking about Zulema…

ZF: Yes, like Trudi Richards that lives in the United States and has I don’t know how many years but …

TLR: Plenty!

ZF: Yes, yes, that’s a part of who you are, but not the most important part in my opinion. But I think we are very educated in doing, doing a lot of things, getting a house and good work, and we always run away from ourselves. That’s my impression. Like “think less, and get more things. ‘Cause I don’t want to face that shadow, that death, that … let’s do another thing.”

TLR: What happened in your life that you came to this approach to death? Maybe you were born that way, I don’t know – but I think we all have important experiences that move us toward facing the things we don’t want to face.

ZF: Well there are many experiences I can tell you, but since I was little, I felt presences – like energy that you feel – entities, it’s called? – at night. And like any child I was afraid at night, and I told my parents, I feel like there’s someone in my bedroom that’s watching me at night – that typical thing. And when I continued growing, I felt them more and more and more. I also started to feel the person’s energies, and have telepathic experiences….

But that is less important than this experience I’m going to tell you. A few times, when I was younger, I was for example at the bus, and suddenly I felt like I was one with all the people surrounding me. Like we were one, and we were connected in a way – invisible in some way, and visible in another – and that it was completely impossible to cut that connection. I felt so much love and peace, I only could cry of happiness, because I wasn’t looking for that experience. It just occurred, like a flower blooms!

TLR: Yeah, yeah, that’s beautiful…

ZF: …and I had it other times, and I felt that I wasn’t crazy – and I started finding other people that told me, yes, I also felt that in some moments of my life, and constantly, like there is something more – that feeling, that feeling – and that is growing, growing, and I started investigating about spirituality, God, energy, and so on…

TLR: Yeah. I love what you’re saying, and I think we can all relate to that, even if we haven’t had exactly that kind of experience – always there’s some feeling that there’s “more”…

Silo says, “Never imagine that you are enchained to this time and this space” – and I think whether we just saw something beautiful in nature, we felt at one with nature, or were watching a movie and something moved us, listening to music… whatever can carry you into that deeper place – or that higher place, or that whatever… that rounder place… I think it’s within reach of everybody.

Unfortunately the word “spiritual” has gotten a bad rap –  “No, no, I’m not into spirituality” because it is associated with escape from reality, maybe? Or religion, organized religion, which has a lot of problems for many people. But when we talk about spirituality, for me it’s just the only word I can find for going to that aspect of our lives that seems like it just HAS to go on.

Like my brother said to me the other day. He for many years told me that he really didn’t think there was anything after we die. But I went to visit him in California, and it was so wonderful to see him after this whole pandemic, and being stuck, never being able to see anybody else – so I went to see him and it was just a lovely, lovely experience, and as we were leaving, he just suddenly said to me, “You know there are these people that think that everything ends when you die – but that’s impossible!” And then he said it again – “It’s impossible!!”

Which I absolutely feel. And there’s no scientific justification for this of course – although maybe the quantum physicists are coming close to that these days, I don’t know…

ZF: Yes, we are surrounded by this idea, that there is nothing more. But if there is nothing more, why are we constantly feeling that there is not enough, with ourselves, with our lives, and we are constantly trying to fill that void, that paradoxically we can’t fill!

Maybe we can fill it if we observe it, and accept it, and we live in it – like inhabit that void. But we are constantly doing the other way around! That’s why so many people are saying “No, there’s nothing more, but my life is empty, has no sense, I don’t know who I am, I’m on drugs…” That’s my confirmation that there is of course something more!

But when we are saying there’s something more, it’s a tricky idea because EVERYTHING IS, and it’s not separated, in reality – that’s what quantum physicists proved! That it’s all a unified field, and everything in it is interconnected. So separation is only a perception that can be replaced by another perception. We’re always talking about belief systems, more than one truth or another.

We are educated in separation – and spirituality teaches us to integrate. Unification. So it’s not “I’m spiritual or not spiritual – there’s something more…” No! There’s no more! We have all that it can be, all that it is! You are! Everything is!

We are educationd in separation – earth things, heaven things for example, or spirituality things – but the most spiritual things are the earthly things!

What I wanted to add is that we can think about a movie. When you are seeing a movie, you forget you are the observer of that movie. If you are aware, if you are observing, you’re going to find that there is an observer there, that transcends your body and that IS in your body – it’s not somewhere else! It’s all HERE! God is here, life and death is here, everything is here all the time, and everything. So if someone wants to go deeper, observe the observer, and then you will experience that you are farther from time, farther from space, and then farther from death.

That’s my experience. But it has to be experienced – if not, it’s just another belief.

TLR: That’s very beautifully put. It reminds me of a dream I had last night. It was on a planet where everyone was oppressed. There was no freedom, there were all these guards controlling everyone’s movements, and it was very dangerous, you could do something wrong and get tortured at the drop of a hat.

But this was not a nightmare. Because I was there, but I was just observing. I was looking, watching, seeing “how can I best approach these angry people, just in a neutral way, that recognizes them and connects with them?” And by doing that, I stayed ok in the dream, and I was never frightened. It was just more of a “how interesting, what this situation is, and how we can be alive in the world…

Because we can do the same thing here, in waking consciousness – and I think that has something to do with what you were talking about…

ZF: Yes. And, Trudi, I recommend to observe how you ARE the other. The other human being, the other flower, the other mountain, the other everything. Observe how you are one with the other! That both are the same life, same something that cannot be explained in words. But when you are with nature, or with any creature, then you also experience that you are far from death, that you transcended. So it’s about observing, observing, being aware. And it’s BEAUTIFUL, it’s beautiful to experience that…

But at the same time, Trudi – I don’t know if you agree, but a part of our human being is afraid to die, and we have to accept that we are also here to experience that fear – that life game! There’s nothing wrong with feeling fear. But let’s be aware to not live for avoiding to die. Let’s embrace it.

TLR: Exactly. Imagine if we could even begin to see our death as a great gift. Not because we’re finally gone and they don’t have to put up with us anymore, but because dying really is the ultimate act of giving. They say “she gave her life.” We spend our lives giving ourselves to the world through our actions, and then finally the body has given all it can, and that’s when we die. So death is maybe the more sacred gift of all.

ZF: Yes! I’m really grateful for being here with you talking about this beautiful topic, because i think it’s one of the most important topics we can talk about! all our life… I’m fascinated about it, Trudi, so I could stay here talking with you like two years! …

TLR: Yeah, I know – me too. I too am really grateful to be here – because as you were saying, when you look at nature, you ARE nature, or when you look at another person, you ARE that person – and I feel that with us, you and I are ONE – really – and we just are different points of view of that one, sharing from our perspective.

ZF: Yes, you know when we listen, we all have to agree with the other and have the same perspective, it’s like, NO, I think life divides itself in different perspectives to have that richness, to have a different experience. It’s like I don’t see life through the same looking, from your eyes and from my eyes – it’s like a very beautiful opportunity to be here and see life from a different looking – every time, with every being!

TLR: Absolutely, every being. Even those that we consider terrible beings! I believe we need to really be open to them, to what’s really going on with them.

ZF: Yes.

And even if we know these things, we are accepting and integrating them, and know that our culture makes us feel that death is something sad and so on, we also have to accept that when we have a loss, even if we know all these things we have talked about, we have to allow ourselves to be sad. Because it’s like a human process, and even if you know that your loved one is more than that human body, you have to permit yourself to live that.  Sometimes with these spiritual groups, i’ve heard, “Ok so you don’t have to be sad, we are all alive and we are all eternal,” but it’s part of my human experience here to feel all these things – how can I accept one thing if I don’t first pass the resistance?

TLR: Exactly. I lost my husband eleven years ago – and we were married for 25 years, and we were deeply happy. We trusted each other. Neither of us could imagine going on without the other one – and then it happened. And afterwards I went through deep grief. And I found that it was absolutely inseparable from the love that I have for him. Completely inseparable – it was like two sides of the same sphere. Like night and day, summer and winter. Very important. Very beautiful, if you can accept it. It’s not easy.

ZF: Oh – yes… I feel here right now so much, I’m trying not to cry because I feel it so so much right now! And I feel that it’s a gift that you transformed your process and your experience into a channel which is this podcast, to share this huge, huge experience. I can’t imagine it because I haven’t lived it already. I am amazed about you – I am really grateful and I’m learning right now from you – because I think it’s really brave.

TLR: Oh, thank you! But I’m afraid I have to disappoint you – talking about these things isn’t hard at all, in fact It would be much harder NOT to talk about them. Because you give me so much, just from sharing your ownexperience, and listening to mine, whether it’s positive or negative. The sharing of it transforms it – it turns it all into something new, gives it new meaning!

ZF: Oh yes, yes, that’s true, that’s true!

I think one of the most beautiful things i have experienced is to connect with our ancestors, to realize that our bodies, our DNA, our culture – all is inherited – and that all that was experienced. It’s shared through the next ones. So you can feel that in some ways you ARE your ancestors too. That there is something that constantly remains and repeats itself in different forms. So there are many ways. In Spain we say “There are infinite paths to go to Rome”…

So it happens the same with life or with death, that which is the same sphere, the two faces, like you said. So everyone will find their path, or their different path – but the thing is to find them, and to experience them, and to live truly our lives, not wait to be something in the future, or to have some goal finished in order to start living.

TLR: Exactly. And not run away from fear. To just “go toward it.”

Is there anything else that you’d like to add?

ZF: I want to thank you for these beautiful moments in the eternal constant – I’m grateful for feeling you inside me. And I want to thank all the people that have listened to us and who listen to us and resonate with us. And that I am open to coming here as many times as you want! I will learn more English through this process, and we all gain, we all win.

TLR: Sure, that’s a great possibility!

Now, it could be that we could start something online around this theme.

ZF: It would be a pleasure!

TLR: Great, we’ll see what happens!

And that was the end of our conversation – and perhaps the beginning of something new – something we will discover as it unfolds.

Before we end, I want to play a song written and performed by Zulema. It’s called Muruki-cantar egipcio – which I believe means something like Muruki’s song of Egypt. I asked Zulema for the lyrics, and she said there are none – she just sang what came to her, and doesn’t know what the sounds mean. But if I listen from my heart instead of my head, it’s not hard to understand…

Again, thank you for listening. Anyone who’d like to continue the conversation with Zulema and me, feel free to contact us – my email is, and Zulema is on Instagram at @VerdaderaNaturaleza. I also highly recommend checking out her Youtube channel, “Y tu, quien eres?” – even if you don’t speak spanish, you can enjoy more of her amazing music.

If you’d like to connect with Jose, you can reach him by email at, or you can find them on Facebook – just look for Hacedor de sentido on Facebook.

For the show notes and transcript for this episode, where all this contact info is written out, visit our website, – that’s w-i-n-g-e-d-l-i-o-n-p-r-e-s-s dot org.

I’ll leave you with some my favorite phrases from the Path in Silo’s Message:

Do not imagine that you are alone in your village, in your city, on the earth, or among the infinite worlds.

Do not imagine that you are enchained to this time and this space.

Do not imagine that upon your death, lonliness will become eternal.

Have a beautiful month, and see you next time.

Day of the Winged Lioness Podcast – Episode #3: A Conversation between Aspiring Immortals
Trudi Lee Richards

Trudi Lee Richards

Trudi Lee Richards, a poetic and musical member of the Universal Human Nation, is the author of On Wings of Intent, a biography of Silo; Soft Brushes with Death, a Jorge Espinet Primer; Confessions of Olivia, a fictional autobiography; and Fish Scribbles. She has also co-authored two books: Experiences on the Threshold and Ambrosia - Poetic Recipes/Recetas poeticas. Exactly two of her poems have been published by anyone other than her less-than-modest self: “The Great 21st Century Poemic" appeared in the April 2021 edition of Global Poemic (; and "Fairies of the Forest" appeared in the Palo Alto Times "Youth Said It" column in 1957. In the '90s she also wrote for, edited and published an independent San Francisco newspaper, Human Future; and in the '70s she co-founded the San Francisco arts publication La Mamelle, which morphed into Art Com before it died, and whose remnants are now housed in the Stanford Archives. A graduate of Stanford University, she helped raise several humans from infancy, and is now enjoying their friendship. Currently she tends to wander between Oregon and California, enjoying the company of her beloved community of friends and family. She can more or less reliably be found at the west coast Park of Study and Reflection, outside Red Bluff in Northern California, on the third Saturday of every month.